atheists are arrogant; they are, but no more or less arrogant than believers are..
and I don't mean that atheists are arrogant in the sense that they have the gall to deny an individual's god with some "clever" bit of logic, or even debunk one of those religious stories with some fact that would blow it out of the global flood waters, or even saying "mate, don't be a dick-head, you know all those bible stories are bullshit, right?" but...
atheists are arrogant for even attempting to use their intellect against the religious, it's just not fair!! *stomps*foot*and*pouts*
it's arrogant to use your logic when god just isn't logical in the first place, so don't expect results using logic!
do you try to talk about philosophy with your cat, well?
it's a fair bet that the non-believer is going to be cleverer than the believer, so the non-believer should not forget that they already have the advantage in any 'game' of facts and logic, so it just seems ridiculous for atheists to even attempt to shoot the fish in the barrel.
If you argued with a mentally challenged person and walked away from that argument feeling like you had won, that's no victory. If you're a 120kilo heavy-weight that beats the crap out of a 60kilo weakling, that's no victory. If you know a martial art, and you use that on someone who couldn't hurt you even if they tried, that's not a victory, no matter how much they tried to hurt you.
On top of this, even if you did trounce every religious argument you've ever encountered with all these facts about just how wrong their bullshit is, (which isn't really that much to boast about, when you think about it) it's still not a defeat to the believer, it's probably a *victory* to the religious person if they merely retain their faith.
Maintaining the status quo is just as good as a victory to the believer, you've tested their faith, they still have it, therefore *you* lose, doesn't matter if you were actually right and actually did win the debate with your facts and figures, you will always lose from the believers' point of view, you can't beat their god/Jesus/Muhammad/whatever with your logic.
Why do you think these religious clowns keep going on about the same old fucking thing all the fucking time? that is soooooo fucking boring.... come on.. no space is not a fucking ocean, no the planets don't slide around on invisible rails, no the fucking earth is not held in place by its magnetic field so it will not fucking fall into the chasm of space if it fails!! JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!! GROW UP!
you can only
"every Jedi knows you can not save someone who does not want to be saved"
--[Jedi General Aayla Secura]
DEBUNKING THE RELIGIOUS AND THEIR STORIES IS SO EASY, A CHILD CAN DO IT
Debunking religious tales is *easy*, a child can do it, so it's arrogant to try this logical, rational and Captain Sensible approach to debunking god and expect that it's somehow going to change some overly religious person's mind, especially in the short term.
Instant changes, on an emotional level, can't be made without 'hurt', that's why feelings of grief will often linger, right? You can't just suddenly wish away the hurt, you'd be a droid if you could do that.
Likewise you just can't wish away the 'dumb' that goes along with the religious point of view, as people don't want to change what they 'know' to be true in any sort of a hurry, they aren't droids any more than you are. The same thing happens with people who stay in less-than-ideal relationships, they just don't want to give that security blanket away, even if it's old, crusty, stinks to high heaven and treats them like crap.
Debunking religion does have the positive effect of pissing the religious off though, but it mainly serves the selfish purpose of propping up the fact that you are right, of course their frikking god is a load of bullshit.
So logic and facts are not going to be that useful, especially when it comes to the bible, seeing how most of the christians I've seen online clearly don't even understand the bible themselves. It's kind of silly to debunk the bible and expect that a believer is going to have a change of mind, especially when the believer doesn't even care if their precious bible is full of shit in the first place! It's kind of like expecting people to know their multiplication tables, when they don't even know basic addition, if they don't know basic addition, then there is little point bamboozling them with fancy schmancy multiplication.
So, Logic + Bible = #fail ??
Logic isn't totally useless in your arguments, just don't expect a return on your investment.
don't get me wrong, if you try to argue with a child about something that they think to be true (perhaps because their Mum said it was so), eventually they are going to realise the truth if you keep the logic up at them.... the keyword there is *Eventually*, so this will *only* happen if you keep up with telling them your truth, but until they come around to your way of thinking, they will probably *hate* you for trying to tell them that thing their Mum said, that makes them feel warm and fuzzy about themselves, is stupid, or bullshit, or lies or whatever craptacular superlatives you can think up.
What do you think all the abuse flying around in the "religious war" on the internet is all about? You just have to say the word "Atheist" and religiotards go *spastic*, what's the point in trying to waste your intellect on fucktards like that?
Using raw logic just pisses the dumbarse fucktarded believers off, and soon as you piss them off their brains start saying over and over .......
"LA LA LLAA LA LLA LA LA LA LAL LAL LA LA LA LA LAL ALA LAL LAL ALA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LLLA LA LA LA LA LA L A L A LA LA not listening to you LA LA LLA LA LA LLA LA LA LA LA LA LA LLA"
beliefs are based in emotions, you can not change how someone feels unless you make your argument from *their* emotional point of view.
LISTEN TO OBI-WAN YOU MUST!
"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."--[Ben 'Obi-Wan' Kenobi]
Wise words indeed, and very relevant to what I'm babbling on about. If you can't understand what the other person is putting themselves through with this rubbish they tell themselves, then you are going to have a very hard time trying to unravel their labyrinth of warm and fuzzy feelings by using your factual tales about how their religion is bullshit.
it's *very* important that the other person's point of view be taken into consideration, if you truly and compassionately believe that it is "for-the-best" that people give up their religion, then you need to speak to them on *their* emotional level, and *not* on your emotional level with your facts and figures and logic and your rationalistic points of view
You should use your clever logic to formulate a solution that deals with the emotional aspect of their belief.
so forget any of the logic you have, because unless you have forever to be patient with someone, you will get little-to-no results. You may make a dent in someone's belief, but that dent will probably takes months or years to rust so bad until it can't be ignored any more, that is of course, if the religious person's emotional concerns stemming from their belief in god, doesn't make them completely dismiss your logic summarily out of spite, seeing how their jealous and perfect and eternal god outranks you and such.
Think about your own perspective; only *you* can change how you feel, right? likewise, you can not change some other person in an instant by delivering them some 'fact' that they are supposed to take to heart, they have to want to change, and they have to want to change at their own pace.
You may deliver some fact that may just cause the cascade into breaking that person's beliefs, but the hit and miss ratio of this tactic is severely balanced in the favour of the "miss" side.
If you're an ex-believer, relate your own experiences.
save your fancy facts and logic for later on, once you've got them asking questions
attacking the concept of god, is an affront to the believer's very concept of eternal life, you've attacked their assertion that they have the ability to cheat death by believing in this loving god, you've attacked their emotional need for god by saying that everlasting life (that is somehow provided by this god creature of theirs) is in fact, a lie.
How would you feel if you suddenly found out that this tight-rope you were walking upon, didn't actually have a safety net that would catch you if you should fall?
how do you react when someone says some lie about someone you are close to? that's what you are doing to the believer when you attack that god thing of theirs. Realise this emotional dependency in your arguments, and *use* it to your advantage. Realise that you are attacking them and their ego.
That's what you are really doing.. say "god doesn't exist" and you are saying that the *ego* of this person doesn't exist, no wonder they go ballistic when you deny their god.
put yourself into their position; how would you feel if someone you were close to was suddenly revealed to have killed every creature on earth? or that your parents didn't actually exist?
that can't be far removed from you're asking the believer to do, even if god is only in their heads. remember the moment that you discovered that Santa Claus wasn't real?
ex-believers may remember going into a mild (or perhaps even massive) panic at the moment they thought, "oh no! I really don't get to live forever" ... oh ... snap..... ex-believers may also remember that 'rush' they got when they thought that Jesus walked with them at every moment that they were alive and how it gave them some sort of righteous self dignified feeling of just being there in the world, all because they are a believer in Jayzsus Cahrist...
believing in Jesus must be very much like being in love, without that whole having-to-worry-about-being-rejected thing, but in order for people to let their Jesus go, people need to grow and expand, at their own pace.
Realise they need to let go of their own *ego* - you can *never* defeat somebody's ego, and if you did, it could actually result in that religious fruit cake flipping out altogether.
*use* that to your advantage, address the underlying emotional concern of the religionist, and leave your conversations about "facts" for your dog, because at least your dog will appreciate the time and attention you give him, even if he doesn't understand you in the slightest.
SO WHAT TO DO?
So to truly deal with the problem of religion, you need to look at it from the believers point of view, because even if their god is just imaginary, their imaginations are still very much real to them, and you know what it's like to get caught up in a story, right?
imagine you are a person living inside a story all the time, imagine walking around believing in Lord of The Rings, or Star Wars or Harry Potter or Dungeons and Dragons as if it were "real"?
The sheer absurdity of the idea of believing in some other person's anachronistic story from a few millennia ago is beyond even trying to address. It's a *facepalm* situation that is so intense a joke that you honour it's absurdity by even acknowledging it's existence, because to even denounce such a joke as religion is to give it more credence than the joke deserves.
"their jokes, don't make me laugh, they only make me feel like dying in an unguarded moment"
because seriously, some people really *do* need to have guidelines about how to behave, so even if they do have it that wrong, it's best to let them have their teddy bear comforting joke, telling them that their teddy bear is wrong will not help much, instead, tell them that they are not following what their teddy bear wants them to do, that they shame their teddy bear by not following Teddy's teachings.
so instead of trying to tell them all the crap they believe in is wrong, you could always teach them how to get their religion right.
If people actually followed what Jesus taught, i wouldn't have a problem with christians, even if they quarter-followed what was taught it'd be great... but that's not going to happen because the fact is, it's very hard to be Christ-like, so showing people that they aren't even following their precious Jesus, is bound to help them reject Jesus of their own accord, at least, that's my theory...
tell them why you don't believe; I don't believe in Jesus Christ because I haven't seen any "christian" actually acting christian, so i'm not going to pretend to be something that I'm not, especially when people call themselves christian when they are clearly not, why would I lump myself in with the greatest lie and joke of all time, why would I identify with a people that have the gall to call themselves "Christ-like"?
I can't think of a bigger joke on this fucking earth. It's a joke so big, it's not even funny.
So, give up on your intellectual battle against the religious, it's not working as well as you would hope, I bet you piss the not-so-smart christians off, especially with all that fancy explanations of fallacies and logic, they don't even understand their bible, they're not going to understand logic..
ie. people have an emotional attachment to money because it provides security, but this precious Jesus the christians allegedly follow, told his followers if they want to follow him, then they are to sell all their stuff and give the money to the needy... atheist should educate the believers, tell them to part with their precious money...
do you know many christians that have given away all their money?
"In truth, there was only one christian, and he died on the cross"
--[Nietzsche "Der Antichrist" (1888)]
mostly written 11th Feb, 2011.... mostly....